Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Hi!

As we know from Jim Sprouls thoughts that are all derived from well done experiences and experiments, the hulthemia blotch should be influenced in existence form and colouring by several genes on perhaps different chromosomes of the rose.

So selfings might be a good idea as it seems, at least froim time to time, to increase the number of the different proposed blotch gene sets, that are needed for the expression of a good and clear blotch.

I did some selfings (just like normal pollinations, only done with pollen from the same plant!) with Alissar from Harkness last year and there is now one seedling with its first bloom yesterday, that seems to have a blotch - and perhaps some of the needed genes are increased in number in this crossing.

What do you think about such a practice?
OK its not that cool - but might be effective in my eyes!


Grx!
Arno

PS: Here it is, my first blotched seedling (not too difficult to achieve, first germinating and flowering seedling out of abt. 70 seeds that brought me 10 seedlings so far)! ;-)

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Hi Arno,

It looks like you have a great blotch! I think that you will be very pleased at how large it gets on a more mature plant.

Congratulations!

Jim Sproul

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Hi Jim,

thanks! Yes it will be interesting, too, to see if the blotch genes are really concentrated in such selfings.

I think it will be indirectly visible in the rates of blotch-seedlings that will occur in offspring!
I can compare that to Alissar seedlings directly, if I do same crossings on both plants, later.

Grx!
Arno

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Hi Arno,

Regarding "selfing", I have done a lot of planting of OP Hulthemia hybrids seeds. There will be an occasional seedling that is better than the parent, but that is not a very frequent event. That is partly what has made me think that there might be more than one gene responsible for the blotch. Perhaps one for the presence of a blotch - probably a dominant gene; one for intensity - possibly a recessive gene; and one for blotch shape.

It might be that there really is only one gene and the other presentations may have something to do with the interaction of the Hulthemia blotch gene with various rose genes.

In any case, there is a huge variability in blotch size, intensity, color, and heat stability.

Jim Sproul

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Hi Jim!

Very good summary - I think its exactly the situation as you describe it: the gene interaction might also play a role ... .

But: Its not easy to find out that with the Tetraploids, what you describe, I think. There could be additionally some gene dosis effects too, as you have it for, e.g. occuring dwarfism when selfing tetraploid roses. Or the loss of resistancy in tetraploid (colchicine!) rugosas, that were resistant as diploids.

To really find out more definite info on that one should create diploid breeding lines with well known diploid partners.

But the only Hulthemia I know that is diploid and fertile is Tigris.
I did few Tigris pollinations this year, but most of them already have failed. So at least I will not know more about that, next year. ;-)
A hard job, really. ... But thats the fun.

Grx!
Arno

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

I know nothing about blotch genes as such, but look at the more general genetics problem. Interfering RNA (RNAi) was discovered in petunias when a group tried to introduce a transgene to increase the color intensity. It was just an extra copy of the gene already present, not something from outer space. But instead of getting more color they got less, in all kinds of interesting patterns. It seems they had triggered a system that responds to virus infection, which tries to silence genes that are making too much RNA.

That's a really abbreviated, sketchy summary, but the point is, sometimes more is less.

My own example is selfing the offspring of Carefree Beauty x General Jaq. The pollen parent is a dark red. The offspring range all over the place in shades of pink, but none as dark as Gen Jaq. None of the selfs of the half dozen best, medium red offspring, come close to it. Simple genetics would suggest that some should.

Roses in the line including Gen Jaq, Crimson glory and other very deep reds must have not just a good dosage of anthycyanin production, but regulatory genes that let it keep on piling up to several % by weight in the petals. It is a delicate balance of multiple genes to get this to happen. Overdo one and you may get the RNAi suppression.

Does this really happen? We don't know for roses, but it has been documented in a lot of plant species for a lot of genes. There are whole networks of regulatory RNA molecules, which go by various names but basically are 10-30 bases long, and are produced from bigger molecules by enzymes with names like Dicer, which cuts the big into little. The little ones bind to messages to turn them off usually. That in turn switches off or on, some other paths. The principle is to keep things in balance.

Part of the challenge faced by people who engineered the blue rose, was this sort of thing when they tried simple tricks for getting over-expression of certain genes in roses. If they know exactly what happened, they don't say, but they had to resort to alternate strategies.

So there may be limits to blotch intensity related to the color of the rest of the petal for instance. And we know next to nothing about the developmental stages of the petal and how many possible pigment expression patterns there can be. Nor how they can be combined. There must be rules in the genes, but we don't know them yet.

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Hi Larry!

your comment shows the intellectual challenge behind the beauty of the hulthemia blotch, I think.

Your comparing of the petunia experiments with the mostly tetraploid hulthemia blotch crosses is a good idea, because it gives a view on what is possible according to flower colour expression via epigenetic phenomena. Speaking of roses, I think these phenomena will occure much more in tetraploids than in diploids, because of the higher possibility in gene-interferring RNAs and also gene and master gene products.

Diploid breeding lines so could help to avoid too much of that odd cool new stuff along finding out what mainly determines the blotch normally.


Grx!
Arno

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

So for the title of the thread "Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets" I can only agree to Larry and so we have to wait for more seedlings and data, until it is more clear, if the "increasing of the numbers of blotch gene sets" is in fact really helpful or not.

Grx,
Arno

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Nice, Arno! How is Allisar as a plant? Do you grow the other two new Harkness hulthemia hybrids too? Are they good as garden plants?

Rob

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Hi Rob!

Alissar is pretty good as a plant, with good health.

Grows like a floribunda, with semidouble flowers.

Grx!
Arno

Link: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.150555

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

And the plant of Persian Mystery is a bit smaller and more dense in its habitus so far, has got more double flowers but a blotch that is of a very dark violet colour.

I like the flower-shapes of that plant.

It is not that resistant / tolerant to blackspot compared with Alissar, it seems, but healthy enough to get through without funghicides.

Grx!
Arno

... Foto below ...

Link: http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=21.150554

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Hi Arno,

These are nice photos. I like the plant appearance of 'Allisar' and the blotch intensity of 'Persian Mystery'.

Playing with the blotch gives 1 more variable to challenge the breeder with getting all (or most of) the good traits into one package!

On another note, do you still have access to Hulthemia persica seeds? It would be fun to see how it grows in our climate. We must have a very similar climate to its normal habitat.

Jim Sproul

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Hi Jim!

The plants are still alive. But they flower not very well and so I had no seeds for 2 Years, except 1 from one pollinated flower in 2008: It gave a F1 hybrid seedling in Winter 2008/2009, but it died after germinating.
I try to get flowers in 2011, if there are more than three flowers I will pollinate persica x persica and will get fresh seed.

Grx!
Arno

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

I agree that selfing could be helpful. What would also be useful would be to keep breeding something like Tigris on the diploid level only for breeding into wichurana-type landscape roses. Not only is it a great source of diploid yellow with some repeat genes, but it is also a source of possible eye zones :)

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

I grow Persian Mystery. Here its color is a nice curious blend of the shade of purple Arno's picture shows with some coral that fade nicely to lilac. The bloch is dark purple.
Nice flowers and compact plant rather desease free in its first year.

Another hypothesis about bloch genetical control would be that bloch is basic petal color which is more or less inhibited elsewhere.
As it is with handpainted roses border that may partly discolor or not. Just as illustrated in Picasso pictures.

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Hi Jadae!

With wichuranas the yellow would fade in every case, but that if you look at "Euphorbia / Euphoria" from Interplant - the leavelets look similar to wichurana style ... I think others thought the same!

Hi Pierre!

The colour is truely a bit variable, I have seen meanwhile.
Your thoughts on the blotch are interesting, but one thing: Rosa persica is related to the spinosissima section of roses.
There is no such a dark red in full petal colours around ... but several shades and tones of yellow!
So: Which one should be the true typical background colour of petals of rosa Persica, red or yellow?
;-)

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Hi!

By the way: I did few Alissar x Persian Mystery crosses.
OK that is nothing spectacular (Harkness does that anyway in every direction since years I guess), but I will see if the blotch output in offspring is increased or if the blotch is whiped away by epigenetic or gene dose effects.

Grx!
Arno

PS: someone out there means he has got Xerxes!
From ... California? Is that possible, I mean than you all would now that, am I right?
What does that mean, is the plant still existing?

Would be a real nice partner for selfings and crossings with other hulthemias.

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Here is the link to the mentioned hulthemia blog with possible "Xerxes":

Link: http://ryumaya2.blog93.fc2.com/blog-category-4.html

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

I'm assuming 'Euphrates' is diploid. The blotch in it is very pronounced. This is my one taken last year (I've shown this photo here before... the blotch is huge and very well defined):

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Hi Simon!

"homozygous diploids" as an aim.

Thats what I meant, too (and jadae also I think) would be perfect to study the genetical inheritance of the blotch!

Grx!
Arno

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Hi Simon,

I love your photo of 'Euphrates'. When I first started getting into roses, I saw a similar photo of 'Euphrates' in a rose book. I thought, "now that's a rose that I would like to breed with". I new nothing of the "Hulthemias" or "persicas" at the time. I was later disappointed after more research to find that it was "infertile" (I know now that there is some question about that statement). I guess that I was "hooked" on the Hulthemias before I even knew what they were.

Regarding the dominance question. I agree that it must be dominant, however, when combined in tetraploids with 3 other chromosomes lacking the blotch, the blotch seems to always be smaller, It is only in combining these 1/4 with each other that there are a few seedlings having larger blotches (2/4). It seems like just as mathematically speaking that the Hulthemia diploids vs. tetraploids appear similarly with respect to blotch when 1/2 = 2/4.

I am not sure that simply going to 2/2 or 4/4 will increase the blotch size or intensity. If one compares 'Euphrates' blotch size and intensity, I think that you are already at "maximum". Especially as compared to Hulthemia persica specimens. It seems that the actual species blotch size covers no more than 1/4 to 1/3 of the length of the petal, beginning at the petal apex.

The next step to increasing the blotch size, I think, is reliant on small variations of incremental increase in blotch size seen in a population of seedlings = selective breeding.

Below is a link to a seedling photo posted on my facebook that has a blotch size and intensity comparable to 'Euphrates. I suspect that through selective breeding it will be possible to get larger blotches.

Jim Sproul

Link: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=678305&l=a2b0ac958d&id=1154482228

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Hi Jim!

Your M40-1 is a very nice plant, it always makes so much fun to view one after another of your plants.

I would say - only according to that foto - this one is one of the best I have seen.
I love strong contrasts. ...


Grx!
Arno

PS:

Your Idea, Simon, of breeding with polyanthas / lambertianas etc. is really what I would call a good perspective.
I did lots of such crossings this year, the seeds of polyanthas also germinate easily.
Only hint: the colours might fade more quickly ... .
But as a special perspective - one possible line to go - its a good idea for sure I think.

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

That's a really beaitiful seedling Jim... it shows what I had ni my mind's eye when thinking 'Trier' x 'Euphrates'. If I get even half that nice I'll be stoked!

The only thing, except from equivalence, about the 1/2 and 2/4 blotch, to me, is the polygene factors. It has to come down to selective breeding as you say but even if we had 4/4 blotched (or 2/2 blotched) some are going to be bigger and better than others and my take on this is that whilst the blotch factor itself might be dominant there are many other genes influecing the size and intensity of it that I loosely call modifying genes. So when looking at diploids you have far fewer of these polygenes affecting the blotch than you do with a tet. A lot of polygenes seem to work in a cummulative manner so with twice as many polygenes you have twice as much work to refine it... maybe that's the wrong way to look at it but I kind of think about polygenes like a + or a - and the more + (or -) the greater will be the effect on the expression and by selective breeding you are 'collecting' or 'discarding' the polygenes to give the effect you want. I guess this is irrelevant if you want to make the leap into large flowered tetraploids :)

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Is the hulthemia blotch at all related to the yellow blotch of various sizes that is sometimes present in modern hybrid roses? I have a cross between a magenta Virginiana hybrid & a yellow mini that is red with a distinct yellow blotch. I'm wondering if a similar mechanism is at play.

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

I dont know but I have noticed that the red blotch tends to be rustic or purplish in tone.

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Hi Simon,

I do see what you are saying. I think that both strategies are equally worthwhile, I am just limited by having few options for repeat blooming diploids. Tetraploids abound.

Hi Lydia,

The yellow "eye" in modern roses is a totally different effect and is almost the opposite of the Hulthemia blotch. It seems that roses with yellow or white centers tend to reduce the Hulthemia blotch - almost like "washing" it away. The yellow or white center areas are produced by a lack of the overlying color, with just the base petal color showing through. In contrast, the blotch is produced by an over lying color on top of the base color.

Jim Sproul

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

I think this question (about patterns on rose petals in general)really needs some careful thought and study. To start with, maybe we all need to look at the layers of cells and find out where the pigment is located. Jim says the blotch is an overlay of color. The yellow base may be suppression of overlying color. Purple may be laying the red blotch over yellow? Crimson roses like Crimson Glory and Mr Lincoln, seem to have yellow at the petal base, (and maybe underlying the whole red part to brighten it?). What about the "hand-painted" series.

And of course there are lots of examples of picotee patterns with just hints of color at the tips of petals. Are those just an extreme case of the central suppression gone crazy? The picotee pattern is common to many flowers, so it has a common origin.

So, for that matter, is the central ring of contrasting color. In daisies and such, yellow is a strong UV absorber that looks brilliant to bees, as someone suggested earlier, a real advantage in deserts where floral resources are scattered. Tulips, from Turkey, also show this a lot.

Can we think of how a petal develops and consider the gene actions needed to turn on and off the pigment production in different parts? Make a list of all the various instances, and how they recombine in hybrid offspring.

For instance I think all bicolors descend from Austrian Copper. Can anyone give a definitive counter-example? Was there a bicolor HP or HT before 1900? (I mean leaf upper and lower surfaces with contrasting color or lack of it).

You could go on thinking patterns for quite a while, but there must be a common set of controls.

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Thanks guys. Good to know.

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

The older crimson HTs are descendants of the pernetianas, hence the yellow area where the petals attach to the hip. Its too bad that there is a gap between the known lineages between them and the pernetianas and hybrid perpetual (and other random red china hybrid descendants). A lot of them were simply unrecorded. Even Crimson Glory is not fully shown, since we have no clue what the lineage of W.E. Chaplin is. Liberty, which a lot of reds descended from, is also only half-known. I am guessing that roses like Independance and Fashion received part of the visually orange-toning not only from the pelargonin of the floribundas they came from but also from the pernetiana influence within Crimson Glory.

Picotee in roses is a little muddled. Some roses have a true picotee and some are just a really vivid point of blending. The difference is usually easy to tell if you look at the reverse of the petals, especially after they hve aged. The true picotee types will have the darker band on the petal reversed etched in still. Examples of this are Playboy, Cherry Meidiland, Betty Boop, among some others. I have noticed that a huge portion of picotee types run in lineages. The Karl Herbt lineage is pretty dense in picotee types. However, other Peace tribes are void of it. I am guessing that it has something to do with the Queen Alexandra Rose, which is one of the first true, completely bicolor HTs. This rose is doubled up in the lineage of Picadilly.

I think picotees and Rosa foetida bicolor/other bicolors have a link but I am unsure as to how it is happening.

I am also unsure how these colors and patterns affect the eye zones, but it is interesting that the red on Rosa foetida bicolor has a similar unuusal, rustic tone as some of the eyes in the hulths. The one thing we do know is that this rustic tone can be replaced with other types of red pigments with further breeding.

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Here is an interesting example of a recent rose from Meidiland that is almost 100% bred from multiple hybrids still pretty close to the pernetiana connection. Check out the coloration compared to most modern bicolors and blends:

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.146166

A hybrid tea with unknwon parentage of similar color is called Bronze Sunset. The rustic coloring isnt evident in the photos, sadly, but I have grown this rose and am full aware of them. I am guessing it is descendant of Arizona, which is pretty much all pernetiana.

Link: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.146166

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Larry wrote:
"I think all bicolors descend from Austrian Copper. Can anyone give a definitive counter-example?"

Sorry

Mutabilis is a bicolor with darker outer side of petals.

The reverse that is lighter outer side can be seen in some rugosa seedlings/vars.

Both bicolor features are easily transmited to progenies.

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Thanks, Pierre. I never considered mutabilis in that category though I grew it for a couple decades. I was more busy watching the color change on the front face of petals.

Maybe I should have said, all bicolor HT and floribundas? Would that be accurate?

Any evidence that rugosa genes are behind any tetraploid bicolor?

Maybe bicolor is more common that I reckoned, but only is noticed when there are lots of petals, and some time is spent in the partially opened state.

Really, my point is that we can identify relatively few basic patterns of petal color, and the a whole lot of variants of intensity, or fraction of the petal expressing a pattern.

I'm thinking in terms of how a very few genes determine the order of sepals, petals, stamens, stigmas. And how easy it is to switch a stamen to a petaloid or true petal. Similarly color patterns ought to be controlled by a few major genes.

The bicolor is one that goes underground easily and pops out later unexpectedly. For instance a couple of von Abrams's roses were bicolors, out of pedigrees where the trait was hidden for some generations. But you can see where it came from. And Paul Barden's Incantation is very like Austrian Copper or Condesa de Sastago, in some ways regarding patterning.

Anyway, it might be useful to try to catalog the major classes of variation and see if we can make sense of the heritability. No one but a breeder looking at lots of offspring is likely to be able to figure this out.

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Larry it would certainly help some times if we had some chart with percentages to look at. I know irises, daylilies, African Violets and others they have figured out these things. The major problem I see with this is most plants that have such charts are either inbreed or do not suffer as much to inbreeding depression. I think you would have to inbreed a lot of roses to get such a chart. After that is done it would be hard to relate to hybrids that are out there because of the background of most are diverse at least when it comes to color. Perhaps if we got a group of people together that was willing to devote some of their work to making control crosses; many of these selfs; and then we pooled all our results together we can begin to make sense of this. We would have to grow a lot of poor seedlings and let them at least make it probably to the second bloom. Also it would be a lot easier to work with diploid rather than tetraploids. But at the same time genes can change the way they are expressed when you go up in ploidy.

I do think some of the genetics are known. But I do not know them myself. My main philosophy has been try not to use to many pink roses, try to cross different colors together without worrying what color they are mainly basing plant selection on other qualities (then usually changing at least one parent so they are not both pink!!!) , and hope for the best.

Anyone else got any thoughts? Very interesting subject by the way!!

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

A darker reverse would be a reverse bicolor rather than a true reverse. Theyre different and seem to express differently when crossed with self-colors. Duet, Belle Epoque, Remember Me, About Face, Blueberry Hill, Pretty Lady. I cant tell from photos, but species like rosa moyesii might be reverse bicolor. This petal pattern seems to descend heavily from roses that are orange-red self-colors or red self-colors high in peonin (as opposed to cyanin).

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

Hi!

I added the fotos of the petal site of the blotch and the reverse for Persian Mystery.

Grx!
Arno

Link: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.61025.0&tab=36

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

I forgot to add that crossing a reverse bicolor with a reverse seems to usually end up in blends. On another note, crossing Solitaire, which is not quite a true picotee, with non-yellow selfs and blends usually ends up in true bicolors. Most roses seem to have dominant color pattern traits but some seem to surpsie you. Moon within Tidal Waves has been breeding every color and pattern common out there except the ones I want =/ I even got bright coral pink from it. Oi vey :/

Re: Selfings of Hulthemia Hybrids to increase blotch gene sets

I did that and also got blends.