'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

I was looking at the descendants listed for 'Stars n Stripes' and they are all climbers of some description. I was wondering how a mini that isn't climbing throw climbers or is 'Stars n Stripes' actually a low growing climber itself? I'm going to put it on 'Ebb Tide' tomorrow to go for something like 'Purple Splash'... without the 'Rhapsody in Blue'.

On a separate question about purple... I was thinking about putting 'Ebb Tide' on "Temple Bells" tomorrow... but decided against it. "Temple Bells" is a white, single, wichurana ground cover rose and the goal in mind was a deep purple groundcover rose. I decided against it because I figured that this cross, at this stage, was probably a waste of time because it would probably result in lots of pinks. I decided instead to do it in two steps and put something deep red onto "Temple Bells" to try for a red ground cover and then put 'Ebb Tide' over it the next season. I've also put 'Hot Chocolate' onto "Temple Bells" for this reason to see if an orange/red gc rose could be made before putting a dark purple like 'Ebb Tide' over it. Does this logic sound reasonable?

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

>> On a separate question about purple

This is a very well thought out question. I am interested in seeing what the answers are.

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

Hi Simon,

I think that is a good idea. If your goal is a purple ground cover though, I would still do the 'Ebb Tide' X '"Temple Bells" cross anyway. I think that you are probably right that the first generation would be mostly pink, but those (F1) could be crossed with each other or with other selections and you might get close to what you are looking for.

Some of the seedlings of 'Midnight Blue' are rather spreading and might also do well in similar crosses.

Jim Sproul

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

Stars'n'Stripes functions like a climber for a very good reason. Its breeding breaks down to Little Chief X (Little Darling X Ferdinand Pichard). Little Darling is a floppy rose. It has a good dose of Wichuraiana in it, and usually throws long, floppy canes before blooming. Ferdinand Pichard is a fairly traditional HP in growth. Long canes throwing shorter laterals like a shorter pillar rose. Hybrid Perpetuals can (at least in my climate) be used as climbers. Most are/were suitable for pegging. Ralph's intention was to take the semi climbing 26Stripe (Little Darling X Ferdinand Pichard) and massage the stripes into a healthier, bushier, more dwarf plant by crossing it with Little Chief.

Little Chief was produced by crossing his Cotton Candy (R. Wichuraiana X Multibracteata seedling) with Magic Wand, which is a climbing mini. Cotton Candy is a once blooming climber. Ralph explained to me years ago the Multibracteata seedling was a sister to Floradora which was never released. He obtained it for breeding and the one rose of note created from it was Cotton Candy. Magic Wand was so named because everything he put it on ended up being commercial, it was his "magic wand". Not in this vein, but Secret Recipe was his striped, moss breeder, his "secret recipe". He wasn't very good at selecting names, but he had fun with them. Thankfully, Carolyn is MUCH better at it than he ever was.

As I wrote in my tribute to him, Ralph loved telling the story of Sam McGredy asking for a plant of Pin Stripe. Ralph wasn't finished with it yet and didn't want to let any of it go, so he gave McGredy a plant of Stars'n'Stripes. Ralph stated he told him if he selfed it once, he could fix the dwarf, repeat blooming striped plant he sought. If you've grown any of the McGredy roses bred from Stars'n'Stripes, you know that suggestion was not taken. They're all floppy plants like Stars'n'Stripes.

So, yes, it is a climber...sort of. Like Sweet Chariot is a climber...sort of. Both can easily develop into arching, floppy plants in milder climates with ample root run and lighter pruning. If you're looking to create climbers, and ground covers really are just climbers allowed to lay flat on the ground, it is a good choice. If you want bushier plants, either self it and select the best of the bunch, or choose something like Pinstripe or one of the others which exhibit bushier, more dwarf plant habit.

You might take a look at Twister. It's a striped, climbing mini bred from 1-72-1, the climbing yellow mini sister of Rise'n'Shine crossed with Shadow Dancer. You'll pick up a double dose of Dortmund in this one. There aren't any listed offspring from it, so who knows what to expect from using it?

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

I love a ton of McGredy roses, but I think one of the major flaws in his roses is mixing bs prone floribundas with bs prone minis. For example, his striped he used in a lot of his roses as well as Sexy Rexy. Every single one of them defoliates in unison here. Oranges and Lemons escaped this but New Zealand definitely did not. And yeah, the striper hybrids are floppy except for Old Port, which defoliates faster than even First Edition or Orange Sensation here lol.

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

The reason I brought up 'Stars n Stripes' is because I love the idea of making a purple striped climber like 'Purple Splash' and I was curious about how/why 'Stars n Stripes' produced climbers as my plant has stayed a typical mini in all ways so far showing no tendencies to climb/flop/sprawl etc. I have pollen from it ready to go tomorrow to work towards this goal. I also like the idea of using it to make bushier compact wichurana based plants and I have done as you suggested and a few weeks ago pollinated a few of its flowers with itself. I wasn't thinking of this at the time... at the time I did it because someone on here, I forget who or where, suggested that 'Stars n Stripes' wasn't a great seed parent so I was going to try and raise a whole swag of selfed seedlings hoping to hit on a more fertile version... like taking the exisiting set of genes and continually shuffling them until a more fertile version appeared *shrugs* no idea if there is anything to this... was just a hunch at the time. Now it appears they might have another use as well... happy coincidence :) Having said this 'Stars n Stripes' seems to do just fine as a seed parent here after all.

Jim, I've decided to do as you suggest and go both ways with "Temple Bells" (I'm 99.9% certain it is 'Temple Bells'). This little GC rose accepts every pollen I've put on it so far. Even bizarre out there crosses like longicupis, rubinginosa, and I even have a few hips using pollen from the hybrid laevigata; 'Anemone' which I wasn't expecting at all as Robert has said it has proven unco-operative for him. So I've collected pollen from the single, deep velvety-red flower carept rose and will put this on tomorrow and over the next few days will also collect mroe 'Ebb Tide' pollen to put on it as more flowers mature. Then I'll have a number of options to work with to try and make a nice purple groundcover rose from 'Ebb Tide'. I think I'll also try 'Route 66' on "Temple Bells" too and then have a third string to this bow and bring the 'Ebb Tide' line and the 'Route 66' line together as well. I've got a single large hip forming that is 'Ann Endt' x "Temple Bells" as well that could add a fourth path to follow that will bring wichurana, rugosa, and foliolosa together along with the purple colour of 'Ann Endt' (from foliolosa).

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

longicuspis even *rolls eyes* - must be the smoke here... we have a massive bushfire nearby that is cloaking everything in thick smoke... am feeling quite ill at the moment with a splitting headache...

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

No... I won't use 'Route 66'... I'm going to use 'Sweet Chariot' instead...

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

Simon, It's amazing you have hips from 'Anemone'.

Yes, mine has been a total failure here. I've never seen a hip and all attempts at hybridization have failed for me. It might be a good idea to consider embryo culture.

I grew 'Temple Bells' about 25 years ago. It's a fascinating little rose. Sequoia had it at the time. I don't remember that it repeated for me and one wouldn't expect it to from the parentage, but HMF states that it does.

I also think 'Sweet Chariot' is the way to go.

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

Simon I have a cross planned this Spring which is similar to your temple bells with the same objective in mind. I will put Midnight blue pollen on White Immensee which will probably have some pinks in the offspring also. Good luck on your crosses with Temple Bells.

Patrick

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

>> Ralph explained to me years ago the Multibracteata seedling was a sister to Floradora which was never released.

Kim, did you mean a half-sister, there being no multibracteata in Floradora?

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

RE 'Cotton Candy': I believe that the Floribunda seedling used to cross with R. multibracteata was the sister seedling to Floradora.

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

Kim's advice is spot on. In some climates, 'Stars 'N' Stripes' is a small climber, but not all climates. In my garden it does not exceed 24" tall. It is definitely upright, but not at all like other climbing minis. As Kim stated, the 'Ferdinand Pichard' in it is responsible for much of its upright, lanky habit, and it is the recurrence of the FP genes that tend to manifest as climbing (IE; tall, lanky, floppy) plants. Ralph's suggestion of selecting more dwarf selfings from 'Star 'N' Stripes' is still applicable now, but it would be faster and easier to work with more restrained stripe parents like 'Pinstripe'. (That would be my #1 choice for breeding stripes at this point)

There are, of course, several other compact, bushy striped roses in commerce now that might be perfectly good for breeding. The MacGredy plants might not be the best to work from, as many of them are tall and floppy. I am sowing a batch of OP seeds from 'Hurdy Gurdy' this year to see what traits come through. If they are all tall, floppy plants, I doubt I will employ it in breeding. It does, however, have the brightest, most contrasty/defined striping of any striped rose I have. We shall see.

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

Simon,

For a purple striped climber, Tom Carruth's 'Purple Splash' is an excellent one in the "pipeline". The first time I saw it, I couldn't believe it - the Spring bloom in the field was incredible. It had great contrasting pure white with dark purple stripes. One thing about purples though, and this is no exception, they tend to look more pink under certain cultural situations. This one in the greenhouse is definitely more pink and the same outside if pH or fertilizer is not correct.

I used to have both 'Roller Coaster' and 'Hurdy Gurdy'. They have very similar parentage lines. Both produce hips, although I recall that 'Roller Coaster' gave me a better germination rate. I don't recall whether you have 'Midnight Blue' out there? It seems to produce taller more vigorous seedlings than 'Ebb Tide', but used with either of the stripes, 'Ebb Tide' should produce some nice climbers.

Jim Sproul

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

Jim, I noticed you have a nice lavender striped rose on your website from 2005, do you still have this one?

I believe Scentimental is a good striped rose to breed from.

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

>>"This one (Purple Splash) in the greenhouse is definitely more pink and the same outside if pH or fertilizer is not correct."


What fertilizer is best to bring out the purple in this one -- what did you mean by the fertilizer not being "correct." I am getting a Purple Splash bareroot later this month and your comment is intriguing.

Kathy

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

Hurdy Gurdy at least bypasses Eyepaint. I have yet to see a Roller Coaster hybrid that doesn't defoliate badly here.

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

'Hurdy Gurdy' stays remarkably clean here with little or no spraying.

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

So how is striping inherited exactly. I guess what I am trying to figure out is there is a lot of red and white striped roses and quite a few pink and red but not a lot of other striped colors. So how exactly is it passed especially if you wanted to get something other than red and white.

I am trying to use Rose Gilardi. For stripes. I almost picked up Pinstripes instead but decided to use this one because it also had genes for mossing. Having a lack of room it was a way of consolidating space. Especially since any interest in stripes is a curiosity and not a real goal, but I am very interested in moss roses.

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

As with a lot of things here... we need to work with what we've got! 'Twister', 'Pinstripe', 'Midnight Blue'... are all unavailable here unfortunately. I might be able to get 'Rose Gilardi' but so far have been unsuccessful. I had a feeling 'Pinstripe' WAS here.. but again have been unsuccessful in my searches. I can get 'Soaring Spirits' of 'Roller Coaster' breeding and scentimental... but of the striped minis it took me 10 years to find 'Stars n Stripes'. I have a yellow and pink striped poulsen's mini but am not thinking of using it... it's not exactly thrifty here. I think I can get 'Hurdy Gurdy' but haven't seen it myself. I have a number of 'Papageno' x mini hips maturing now including 'Papageno' x "Temple Bells".

Robert... I haven't harvested the "Temple Bells' x 'Anemone' hips yet as they aren't yet mature. They are starting to colour up and have swollen... whether there are seeds in there I don't know... and I guess it doesn't mean much unless I can get them to germinate. As you suggested, I guess it makes them a good candidate for embryo culture :)

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

"Temple Bells' x 'Anemone' hips"

That sounds like a dream cross to me.

You may not get repeat but what a step in the right direction!

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

Rose Gilardi seems like a good avenue. I'd probably use it as a pollen parent as the little hips are small, tight and painful to handle lol.

I got some seedlings out of Tickles x Rock Creek last year. Hopefully they will be less prone to bs than Tickles is. They'll definitely be the goal of 3'x3' compact shrublets. Michael Dykstra definitely had a lot of fun with stripers in the 1990s.

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

There is some evidence that suggests that striping may be inherited through cytoplasmic DNA, making it better to use the stripe as the female. Just FYI ;-)

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

My experience with purple roses, particularly violet and particularly those from multiflora, is alkalinity causes chlorosis worse than with others and it can quickly affect the intensity of the violet tones. Sometimes to the point of making violet nearly white. Reine des Violettes in my old garden had to be mulched with peat moss and Ironite to make it anything more than pale pink.

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

Jeanie, the lavender stripe seedling that you mentioned was pretty in the greenhouse, but the color washed out too much outside, so for space reasons, I let it go. I have a few darker lavender vs. purple with white stripes seedlings that I am evaluating, but none as good as 'Purple Splash'. I started on this purple stripe path in 1998 when I decided that I would get a more vigorous 'Purple Tiger' by crossing it with 'Stainless Steel'. Well, it wasn't that easy. I have carried that line up to this point and am still not completely happy with what I am seeing. We seem to have had better luck through 'Fourth of July' (which you will note is also in the background of 'Purple Splash'). After Hulthemia crosses, stripe crosses produced my second largest group of seeds for planting this year. There is still much to explore with stripes.

Kathy, purples seem sensitive to over and under fertilizing as Kim noted. Also the purple comes out best in full sun. A well balance fertilization program and not overdoing it with the Phosphorus should give you good results.

Adam, it seems that stripes are inherited as a dominant trait. I have made crosses with the stripe parent being used as either pollen or seed parent with equally good results. Because the stripe trait is dominant, I have always in the past crossed a striped rose with a non-striped rose. Last year however, I did a few crosses where I crossed striped roses with other striped roses and have planted about 200 seeds of these. I would suspect that there would be a higher percentage of striped seedlings among these. Orange/yellow stripes and red/yellow stripes are the hardest to get. It did once get a yellow/brown stripe that looked very unusual, but the plant was very weak. Though I tried to keep it, ultimately it failed. I do have one seedling from it that I am still using.

There is a striped seedling of Mr. Ralph Moore's that I like very much for breeding, that I believe carries the code name of "Weeks X Old Master". It is seed and pollen fertile and produces a wide range of stripe colors. Paul or Robert, do you have this one? It is one that I would hope would be released someday because it is so nice.

Jim Sproul

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

I don't have it Jim. I never sought out stripes.

I think they are fascinating but I'm happy to let others explore them.

I have 'Hurdy Gurdy' here but only because it was gifted to me by a dear friend. I used it for the first and only time season before last. You're right. Stripes are dominant. It would be very easy to get caught up producing hundreds.

Maybe you should ask David Byrne if Texas A&M plans on introducing it?

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

If I was lucky to live in the USA, I would definitely be mucking around crossing hulthemia with a striper parent, to be sure!

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

You know what prompted me to do the "Temple Bells" x 'Anemone' Robert? If you go back and look through the lineage of TB you'll find Noistette blood from a plant called 'Margarita'. It appaears twice in the pedigree. Seeing as a lot of Teas and Noisettes were mixed I assumed this indicated a fair degree of compatibility and the pollen parent of 'Anemone' is a Tea of some description... so I was hoping there might have been some kind of compatibility there... that and TB seems to accept everything (though it didn't accept 'Paul's Scarlet Climber' for some reason), and 'Anemone' flowered so well for me this year for the first time since planting it three years ago and it looked like it was producing so much pollen just begging to be tried on something :) ('Anemone' has grown like a weed for me this year producing long canes that have reached a veggie garden and consumed my 'Black Russian' tomatoes LOL). I'll move the veggie garden over winter away from the rose with a taste for salads and with any luck next year there will be even more flowers to play with :)

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

Jim,
I don't have the Moore rose you are describing, I don't think. I have two climbers, both striped, one a kind of orange on cream and the other is a dark orange on yellow stripe that was on the 2008 list for new releases that, of course, never happened. I think the likelihood of TAMU ever sending any of these out into commerce is very slim. As others have pointed out, they haven't exactly been proactive in marketing the Basye hybrids.......

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

Thanks Jim, well your Life Lines produces great pollen, and I only had this plant since last spring. I tried the pollen on several HT roses such as Gemini, Neptune and Stepen Rulo and a few seeds have germinated from the SR cross so we will just have to wait and see. I like the purple striped seedling that your son bred, that is a winner for sure!

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

Paul, I havent had issues with using stripes in either direction. For example, this cross uses the striper as a pollen parent:

http://www.rosehybridizers.org/forum/message.php?topid=12582#12584

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

Robert, you are right that we have to be disciplined not to go in too many directions - I hope that I am getting better at that - but maybe not!

George, I have tried that cross and found that the white stripes obliterate the Hulthemia blotch! I am still trying, but not sure what I'll get. Most of the stripes tend to have a relatively larger central white zone (that competes with the blotch) - would need a striper that produces good stripes all the way to the center I think.

Simon, I hope that one doesn't develop carnivorous tendencies!

Mr. Moore gave me a plant before the TAMU connection was made. I was glad to see though that TAMU does have copies of the plant (at least they did when they were housed at Greenheart).

Paul, if no one else has it though, I would be interested in finding out whether I can send it around. This one is very interesting.

Jeanie, I hope that 'Life Lines' gives you something interesting!

Jim Sproul

Re: 'Stars n Stripes' and climbing minis

If it does... I'll call it 'Audrey' (of Little Shop of Horrors fame LOL).