More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

For those interested in species, I pinpointed a link to Walter Lewis' monograph on the Subgenus Hesperhodos, which I show below. Lewis' monograph, key and illustrations are terrific, nicely illustrating the inherent variability of species roses. When you combine this portion of Lewis' monograph with an informative page published by the Arizona Game and Fish Department Plant Abstract on Rosa stellata subsp. abyssa A.Phillips, you have the full story (for now) on these two odd desert species of the subgenus Hesperhodos.

Here's the link to the new Stellata subspecies abyssa found only on the rim of the Grand Canyon in Arizona:
http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/edits/documents/Rosastab.fi_001.pdf

Biodiversitylibrary.org has new beta software for downloading articles as .pdf's from its outstanding collection of botanical references. Unfortunately, the page selection software is largely inoperable on a Mac. The following link is to a .pdf of Lewis work on Hesperhodos, as close as I can get. The pdf a very large file, so be patient while your browser downloads. The Mobot server is slooowwww, but my, oh my, what a service. This link is good for about a month.
http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/pdf2/001517100065866.pdf

Last of all, FWIW, I did find a source of seed for R. stellata, although it's anyone guess how and whether they can be germinated, short of Don's embryo extraction.
http://www.plantsofthesouthwest.com/cgi-bin/plantview.cgi?_recordnum=1150

Link: http://biodiversitylibrary.org/page/20102243

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

>> it's anyone guess how and whether they can be germinated, short of Don's embryo extraction.

If anyone is serious about breeding with stellata but timid about the technique you can feel free to get in touch with me to work out arrangements for me to help you out.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Hi Cass,

I appreciated your talk in Palm Springs - sorry I didn't get to meet you though!

R. minutifolia has interested me since the first time that I saw it at Mr. Ralph Moore's nursery. I tried some crosses this year with it as pollen parent - all but one hip failed. I am worried that it may end up being a self pollinated hip that made it. We'll see.

Thanks for the great talk!

Jim Sproul

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Thank you, Jim. The crowd was very polite, even though I could sense my topic wasn't the fare they were accustomed to. I armed myself with plenty of images of pretty roses in self-defense.

Too bad R. minutifolia was disappointing. Did your plant go dormant by mid-June?

If R. stellata ssp. mirifica can survive a mild climate, it might be an interesting alternative. It is certainly more photogenic, based on the Texas shots. I worry that because its native range is somewhat high altitude (around 5000 feet), it may require a period of dormancy and/or a certain amount of chill to be happy.

Link: http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/ornamentals/nativeshrubs/rosastella.htm

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

I had R. Minutifolia for over a year now. Dormancy appears to be temperature based to me. When the temps go to 90 (which they do not get to here until August) it stops all activity and the leaves brown up, at which point I stopped watering it. It rained on it in October and it was amazing how fast it put out a new basal and fresh leaves and then began to bloom on the whole plant, and you could never have known how sad it had looked a month earlier by the time of the ARS conference last week.

Kathy

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

My plant may have died.... I had help watering my roses in the summer and I don't think they paid attention to how wet the potting soil was..... The plant looks dead, but maybe I can find some growth when I dig it up.

Jim Sproul

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

I don't know if I killed mine or if it went summer dormant and I tossed it, thinking I had killed it. If I ever get my hands on another, I will immediately plant it on a sandy loam mound, with the hope that will give it perfect drainage. I had a one gallon dripper in the pot, but someone helped me out by swapping that out to a shrubler while I was on vacation. When I returned, it looked dead.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Well -- dead looking is a good way to describe this plant when it is dormant. The canes do not stay green, but rather are gray. Jim, Cass, if you want another now, I made that offer on another thread here and so far I have two takers. Want to make that four? I'll make a trip to that nursery after Thanksgiving to get mine and to get them for the others here that want them and then charge them each the $10 for the plant and the actual cost of shipping.

Kathy

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Thanks for the very generous offer, but I'd better decline. I think a plant will have a better chance of making it through our wet winter if I start it out during the summer drought, rather than during the winter. The average rainfall up here is on the order of 3 or 4 times what it gets in its native range, not to mention our wintertime lows of around 18℉. I read it takes Zone 8, but I'd like to see it with my own eyes.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Kathy,
I'd like to take a chance on it. I have a solar porch where several large barrel cacti are rather happy away from our rainfall.
Please email me for my address.
The only thing that might take a bit of preplanning is mailing it cross country through a warmer slug of weather.
Ann

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Ok, I went to the Tree of Life nursery yesterday and now have the 3 R. Minutifolia plants requested and will send them tomorrow. Ann, I need your address. I have the addresses for Patrick and Jon.

I met Mike Evans there, owner of Tree of Life, who said it took him 15 years to learn how to propagate this rose from cuttings. The cuttings from which these three plants are propagated came from his mother plant which came originally from the Otay Mesa stand of R. Minutifolia in California. He also has a mother plant from the Baja stand, but had no plants available for sale from that one at the moment -- but he says they're the same. Anyway, we also had a discussion about Ralph Moore's not particularly successful efforts with this rose, and he loves that someone is trying to do something with it again.

As for the difficulty in rooting this rose, he says he is convinced that this rose is allelopathic -- i.e. its own leaves on the soil in which a cutting is stuck prevent root formation. What do you all think? Anyone ever hear of an allelopathic rose? (I haven't.) He says one of the keys to propagating this one is to not have too many leaves on the cutting (or, I guess, to remove them from the area as soon as they fall off the stem).

Kathy

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

There are certainly lots of examples of crops that inhibit germination of similar plants, including their own species. That is distinct from the tendency of plants to exhaust the soil of particular nutrients. But one of the classic examples of creosote bush in the desert may be an issue of water, not self-inhibition. Folks still argue about that one. I'd be surprised if a few leaves on the soil made the difference for a rose, more likely removing leaves stimulates some hormones associated with root growth and reduces the demand on the cutting aboveground. Of course it wouldn't be that hard to test the idea by picking leaves from the mother plant and scattering or mixing them in soil. Maybe it's hard to get enough similar cuttings to do a good dose-dependence study but it would be interesting to try.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Mel Hulse reported decent results rooting this rose by ground layering, with the layered cane pegged into the soil in a different pot. He grew it under a sun porch, which limited rainfall and maximized heat.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

"crops that inhibit germination of similar plants, including their own species."

Magnolia grandiflora is one such example of this. I have also found that deciduous azales will usually die (for me) if planted anywhere within the root zone of one.

It also seems to me that same applies to roses planted within the root zone of boxwood.

two cents....

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

"The cuttings from which these three plants are propagated came from his mother plant which came originally from the Otay Mesa stand of R. Minutifolia in California. He also has a mother plant from the Baja stand, but had no plants available for sale from that one at the moment -- but he says they're the same."

http://www.californiacoastalrose.com/rosa_minutifolia.html

It's a cute little rose. Prickly as all get out... So I was doing my homework and ran across this.
"the rose is known to be difficult to propagate from cuttings and only the species variation from Baja sets seed which are viable. The variety from Otay Mesa does not set seed."

(pollen parent only then?)

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

So the one we have might not set seed. Maybe if we polinate it will set seed. Its a cute little thing. Sort of looks like my Abbotswood Potentilla. Maybe I will try crossing the two. Thanks Kathy

Patrick

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

It does look very much like a Potentilla. That's an interesting idea. I was thinking of perhaps trying it with R. hugonis (another xeric rose- which does very well here amazingly enough).

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Hmmm that's interesting. As I mentioned before, I just gave away my previous plant at the ARS National and got one with this batch to replace it. The one I gave away (which was purchased at the same time as Jim Sproul's, did set hips. Tiny little things, but they were there. But I never opened one of them to see if seeds were in there. Jim?

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

The person who wrote that article, Ivy Bodin, is a friend of mine and is in my local rose society so I dropped him a line about where he got that particular piece of info about the Otay Mesa cultivar not setting seed. Here's what he said:
Quote

Hello Kathy:

So good to hear someone else is interested in Rosa minutifolia. A stunning little bramble from our very own area. As best I can remember when doing the article I probably got that bit of info about not setting seed from an article by a botanist in the Pacific Horticulture journal prior to my date of 1999. I also interviewed some native plant specialists especially from the Native Plant garden at Wild Animal Park where there is a stand of the rose. I also observed for myself and interviewed some staff members at the San Diego Natural History museum where specimens of the plant are catalogued from the 1800s.

I don't know of anyone trying to breed with the rose and know nothing about the pollen. Experience is always the best teacher..they should just try it. I did talk with a rose species specialist Bill Grant in northern California about this time and he mentioned no success with growing the rose in his area. I have tried and killed about 3 plants here in my garden. I would love to get some more and give it a try again ..trying to duplicate an environment. It seems they are quite in need of the lower San Diego area and down into Baja. A friend had a plant I gave him surviving planted in a raised planter in Carlsbad. I lost touch with him. And he mentioned observing the rose growing vigorously and blooming down the Baja peninsula. But I forget which season. That one sets seed. And a friend out in Poway had one growing out in their area, near Wild Animal Park. My plants survived nicely for about a year in their pots undisturbed and barely watered. When I planted them in the ground, they expired. The crucial time is the summer when they go dormant. Where are your breeder enthusiasts living? That locale will have everything to do with the survival of the plants. regards....Ivy

Unquote

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Hi Kathy,

I didn't get any seed set on it, but have one hip using it as the pollen parent. I have my doubts though that it is a true cross. Will find out soon! I think that my plant is dead..... too much help watering in the summer time....

Jim Sproul

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Minutifolia arrived at my place yesterday.
I am so pleased with it. I feel as if I already know the prickles and the gangly canes suggest a couple of distant cousins.
My husband looked at it and asked if it's a rose and then he looked at the stipules.
It is so neat to meet the rose I read about and to see it up close.
It definitely won't be grown in my local soils and will spend winters between my kitchen and my solar porch.

It held its leaves on its way east and that, in itself, is different that many California roses which have dropped leaves wantonly when boxed up for four or five days.

Thank you, Kathy, for knowing a resource for this rose and for sharing.

Ann

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

I will puke on sight of the next Potentilla fruiticosa I see, lol. Seeing thousands upon thousands of them will induce that. I promise. The upper and midwest need some other form of repeat-blooming color.

I think the rose is much more interesting. It would be a cool to see a heat-dormant rose for places like an Arizona landscape.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Being a species, I only see one of two possibilities.
a) The species is dioecious, like R. setigera
b) The species experiences autopolyploidism (with diploid, triploid, & tetraploid examples found in wild populations).

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

I can think of other possibilities, too. I've seen large wild populations with no hips in northern California, i.e. thickets 20 feet long the 10 feet deep. In Northern California (tho this is improbable in Southern California), midge can infest wild populations and prevent flowering and therefore hips set. Midge won't prevent suckering, however.

I've also seen very bizarre flower galls on coastal populations of some kind of wild rose out at the Point Reyes National Seashore. The native plant people claim it may be R. nutkana, tho I have my doubts. The galls were so extensive, so extravagant, and so large that I seriously doubt the blooms could ever set seed. These things were just shy of tennis ball sized. You can see a shot at the link below.

There are climate variables. I've read that populations of R. minutifolia bloom suddenly, mid-winter, if and when it rains. No rain, no hips. And if it rains, they bloom mid-winter, not in the springtime. So looking for hips in June or July would be too late if rain and flowering occurred in January to March.

To me, this rose has all the hallmarks of being a remnant of a once-more widespread species that survives only in isolated, widely dispersed pockets. I made that up, but a look at the paleobotany, paleoclimatology and ecology of the regions where this subgenus survives would tell the story. The more highly specialized the species, the less likely it is to being very adaptable.

Link: http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=21.77063

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

(My new minutifolia has buds!) And me with no pollen and 17F tonight.

Cass, that gall is ...a bunch of galled buds in tight little mess, or was that just one gall inside a hip?

The Paleo, paleo, paleo reminds me of some of the refugia left over from the Pleistocene. There are some valleys in the Rockies that have eastern US floras- that are missing for well over a thousand miles until you get to our mountains. There are bits and pieces of more northern biotas down here in the Smokies. These were of great excitment in the 1800s and some of the papers back then showed how much someone could do, just on mule back with a strong backside and an urge to see what was over the next ridgeline.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Ann, I don't know much about that gall. The galls grew at the ends of laterals. I assumed that they involved flowering material, but I couldn't tell if it was a single bloom, a cluster or a leaf gall at the tips of the canes. That stand of Rosa is far out onto the promontory of Point Reyes National Seashore, within a very unusual, coastal-influenced ecology subjected to salt spray, constant wind, and very cool temperatures. I mean to go back there this coming year in the springtime to take a look at the stand during the flowering season.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

So does anyone know how much cold can these two roses take? I was also wondering if seed treatment on roses from warmer climates is it the same or do they not like to be chilled? For example tea roses..

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

I just read a 1993 article on R. minutifolia from Pacific Horticulture

Those of you with recently acquired plants might be interested in a few points. It grows, flowers and sets seed in winter, when it rains, usually between November and March. It seems to be self-infertile. Seed requires no stratification, not surprising because there's no frost in its native habitat. I suspect it's really tender. It's leafless in summer and can live 9 months without water. FWIW, I thought my plant was dead because it dropped all its leaves by late June, but it might have been dormant instead.

A summary of the article is at the link. The article is "The Xerophytic Rose."

Link: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.17261&tab=7

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

I like it. Mine's growing out really well... although I'm a touch upset with myself because I didn't plan ahead for yet another potted houseplant. I think if I get some seedlings from it these next few years, I will sacrifice it to the cold just to see how much it can take. I have a few observations that I haven't heard mentioned. It has a root system unlike any other rose I've seen- it wants to have very long tap roots with a mass of (azalea like)fibrous roots at the end. For that reason, I'm wondering how it would do as a root stock for desert areas and if it would be graft compatible with other rose varieties. My second observation is that it has a very piney (is that a word???) smelling resinous sap unlike any other rose I've ever experienced.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

It survived without special care here in the low desert for a few seasons before I lost it.

I made the mistake of putting it in the ground. It seemed much happier in a container.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Minutifolia isn't as tender nor as water intolerant as thought. I had a stand of it in my garden in Newhall nearly twenty years ago which flourished until I messed with it. The soil was native, virgin desert adobe, drained fairly well but was quite "loving", becoming very sticky when wet. Neither minutifolia nor Stellata mirifica had any difficulties with water, drainage nor temperatures there. It got hot and it got cold, with a hundred degree swing between summer and winter (15-115 degrees F). The Santa Clarita Valley is just over the Grapevine from Jim Sproul in Bakersfield.

I dug tip rootings of minutifolia and potted them in commercial planter mix I purchased from a local soil company and they grew quite well for many years. They'd flower and them tip root in all of the surrounding cans in the pot ghetto. I found both roses bloomed as long as they were watered, and they received the same water at the same schedule as the other roses in the garden.

The three minutifolia plants I have now are from Tree of Life. They're blooming now in five gallon cans of Miracle Grow Moisture Control potting soil on a south facing hillside in the Santa Monica mountains. It's definitely a Valley climate with slight coastal influence. They get exactly the same treatment as the commercial roses and all of my seedlings. Stellata mirifica is with them, but receives more western exposure with some shade from a walnut and California pepper at mid day.

I've pimped pollen on both and pimped theirs on most of everything else around, all with little reward. The closest I've come was one hip on Anytime, which was eaten before I could harvest it.

I've noticed more of the "dead plant" look when the minutifolias have been in too sandy soil, too fast drainage with too little water holding capacity. Good air circulation in the root zone appears to be the trick. As long as there is some moisture available, they don't look dormant, deciduous nor 'dead' in the heat here.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Las Pilitas Nursery in Escondido has two Rosa minutifolia growing well at their nursery site, under slightly different conditions. Both of these are likely from the Otay Mesa genetic stock collected by Tree of Life Nursery.

The first is growing under a 100+ year old Coast Live Oak tree in native heavy clay soil. It never receives supplemental water, goes completely dormant for half the year during the hot months, and leafs out with the winter rains. This one puts out a minimal bloom unless the winter rains are significant. It has thrown small canes, and looks like it wants to form a thicket but can't break into the hard soil. It is several years old at this point and still a tiny plant, but alive! It gets half day, morning sun, then afternoon shade from the oak.

The second is growing near the front of the nursery in a large mound of decomposed granite near a seasonal creak bed in full sun. This area is within their hand-irrigated gardens and gets occasional summer water when they are not under drought restrictions. The rose responds excellently to summer water greening up and putting out blooms, though the spring bloom is far more intense. One year when it got regular water this plant did not seem to enter dormancy at all. Interestingly, this specimen has spread by rhizome, rather than by natural layering, and gets a little bigger each year. It does throw canes, but I believe the nursery staff cuts the plant back to the ground each fall.

I have watched these plants closely for several years and, at least within these specific cultural conditions, they appear to be long-lived and suffer from no pest or disease issues. Very minor amounts of summer water give excellent results, at least in good drainage, and with no fertilizer or even top mulch used at all.

I have tried unsuccessfully to root this species from cuttings twice. Layering and rhizome propagation seem more likely to be successful.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

We finished planting all of our seeds yesterday and as it turns out, we had 2 hips with a total of 32 seeds from R. minutifolia as the pollen parent. I have my fingers crossed that I will have some non-remontant seedlings sprouting from these!

Jim Sproul

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Congratulations Jim! I'll keep my fingers crossed for you! The only thing I ever may have gotten from it was with Anytime and nothing ever came from that hip.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

I have to wonder what one would want with a minutifolia cross (although curiosity is a good enough reason). Shortened internodes and perhaps that deeply incised rugose foliage would look good in a slightly larger version. I have a flower bud starting to show some color now (I like the bristles/moss!)- sure looks like it has very tiny (but prolific) blooms.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Drought tolerance would be reason enough in our Mediterranean climate.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Then there's just the challenge of accomplishing it.

We never know how a new species might influence the genome. Sometimes there are some nice surprises.


Jim, have you considered letting Don have a crack at a few of those seed via embryo culture?

If Kim's experience is any indication you might get a better shot at viability that way.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

I have some stellata distant recurrent progenies combined with bracteata, rugosa, foliolosa, nitida from a year 2000 initial cross. Nice flowers with quite distinct foliage. The rather stiff growth is not surprising as all parent species share this characteristic. One seedling with very large smooth purple flowers is actually being entered in Den Haag international roses trials that looks more like rugosa than like the other species.

I am yearly adding other species in order to diversify ornamental features.

Without backcrossing to species shortened internodes are lost in two generations. Just as recurrence is added.

Fertility within these combinations is generally high as is germinability.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Pierre, sounds like you have some very interesting things coming along! Glad to hear there is good fertility!

Thanks Kim! Although, I am not certain that anything will come of them...... we shall see soon!

Robert, embryo culture may be the way to go. I have already planted the seeds. I will see what happens in the next 2 months, then if they don't germinate, may try to find them and get help from Don if possible.

Jim Sproul

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

It's the little things in life that make me happy. I'm super excited because I have a couple of hips forming on minutifolia. If I get some seedlings from it, I will set it out and sacrifice it to the winter gods.

BTW it took me awhile for it to dawn on me, but this species is recurrent.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

If you don't mind telling us more about the rebloom, I'd be very interested to hear about it.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

For me it has been more or less continuous with a couple of flowers opening every couple of days (since I have had it). Obviously most fail and dry up and fall off promptly; that said, I have three hips forming!!!

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Jon good luck with your seeds. I wonder if either R. minutifolia and stellata have genes for ounce blooming habit. It seems to me that them living in the desert the main factor to flowering would be water. Both also come from fairly warm climates. I do not know if R. stellata is repeat blooming but I will find out soon enough because I have several growing from seed. If your R. minutifolia seed does not seem to want to germinate try leaching out them. I noticed with R. stellata that they where staining the paper towel so after a long time of not germinating I starting changing the paper towel every two weeks with a free damp one. This seemed to start germination. Since it is a dry land plant it does make sense. Keep us informed.

By the way do you have any pollen from R. minuitolia available? And are these open pollinated seed or from crosses?

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Jon, the hip looks great - good luck with it!

Update on my supposed R. minutifolia seeds - all of the seedlings bloomed like modern roses. I am sure now that they were OP seeds. Bummer....

Jim Sproul

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

I thought I'd post some photos on the propensity of this plant to look dead at times. Here's a few pics of my R. Minutifolia plant in February and one taken today. I used to think it was heat that knocked it into dormancy, as the last time it did this was in August. But this time it happened in February, an unusally wet February. Go figure. But it comes right back with no special care if you just leave it alone for awhile to sleep.

Kathy

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

And today:

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Mine used to do the same thing.

I made the mistake of putting it in the ground where it grew backwards till I lost it.

Seems to do much better in a container from what I've observed. It doesn't like to go dry and enjoyed being coddled a bit which I found surprising.

Ralph Moore used to have it budded to an understock, I think it was Dr. Huey. It made a really ugly budded plant but it did flower quite a bit.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Darn! It snookered me. I surely tossed a live plant.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

I guess it is a safer bet to cut away some of the dead-looking branchlets, to check and see see if the wood is green inside..before it is binned..this might avoid tossing a live plant that does this sorta weird "death trick"" lol.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Oh, I did that. The only visible green is a tiny bit of the cambium layer so small it seems like an illusion. The wood seems to be naturally brittle.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

hard to be sure, but that sure sound pretty close to dead to me..I would have binned that also..lol

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Perhaps it is too much water that triggers dormancy -- maybe you loved it to death, so to speak, Cass. As I'm thinking about this, I surely was watering every day in August (and sometimes twice) as my normal potted roses dry out quite fast at that time of year. It is as hot as we get here, and also somewhat dry and the plants are usually getting too large for whatever size pot they are in and they just suck the water down at that time of year. And in February this year, we had rain after rain after rain - so probably too much water then too. And it looks a little yellower than normal today -- maybe it's time to stop watering it so much now also.
Well, that's a theory anyway. I think many people have been "snookered" by this rose. I took a bloom to a show and the judges were wondering how you could keep that plant alive -- it seems to have a reputation for not liking captivity. I hear "I had one and it died" alot.

And it does seem to like its little pot. That's only a one gallon nursery can, and it is only filled halfway up with the original dirt the plant came with last year. But no roots are coming out the drainage holes, which is how I usually adjudge it time to repot.

I have to go to the nursery where I get these next week for something else. If there's someone on this thread who wants one (or another one, Cass), they are ten dollars each and then I would expect whatever it costs to mail it. Let me know.

Kathy

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

It's a generous offer, Kathy, but the timing is bad because I'm leaving on vacation 14 June. I'm not sure we have enough margin of error for mailing.

I put a two gallon dripper in the pot, which means it got about 1/2 gallon of water every other day. Sounds like a lot, but drippers water pretty much straight down, so it's less than you'd think. I was struck by how small the rootball was.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Adam, I tried collecting pollen yesterday from a flower that was just opening. I waited until today to see if the anthers would release but it appears that it is not making any more (temps in the high 80's). I know for a fact early in the season it was but I didn't bother collecting it. I can try early next season if you're interested.

As far as hybridity- anyone's guess. I have been working it over... with lots of things, tetraploids and diploids (like multifloras, rugosa, golden chersonese... I mention those three because those hips all came from about that time). Informally though.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

I would be interested in that.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Seems like multiflora and rugosa are to safe bets to try with just about anything.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Shoulda been named The Possum Rose. Its rather....odd.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

"Seems like multiflora and rugosa are two safe bets to try with just about anything."

yeah, and I used the endemic wild species multiflora also and a once blooming Carefree Delight x R. multiflora- both singles. So I would expect single once blooming progeny.

I also used the single flowered species rugosa.

golden chersonese is single as well... see no imagination. I crossed a single with all singles.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

I love a good single... almost more than semi or double flowers. Don't write a good single off :)

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Jon no imagination at all:) But really I think that just trying to use this subgenus suggest you either have a lot of imagination or a great amount of curiosity. Maybe a little of both. I know with me a lot of things are more curiosity than imagination. I was planing to do basically the same cross myself with R. stellata when they got to that point. Right now they are just seedlings. But I figured that by using multiflora or rugosa I would have the best chance of getting something fertile that would bridge the gap between this subgenus and modern roses. So if you took my comment as a knocking on you I did not mean it to come out that way.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Oh you're fine, I was being hard on myself... and yes I am curious as to everything and sometimes it gets me in trouble, has always been that way (some things are harder to put back together than take apart).

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Just making sure Jon. Did not want to offend anyone. My bother took apart everything mechanical when we were kids. Most of the time he could not get them back together.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Oh I went so far as to take apart the shower head, refrigerator, alarm clocks, my dads speakers...(he was pretty upset about that one). I get to be everyone's 'fix it' person now though to pay for all that (whether I want to or not).

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Today one seedling (out of twelve seeds) from a May 2007 cross of

Stellata mirifica x Veilchenblau

germinated.

... I am so happy. ;-)

More than only one time I thought of throwing away the old substrates, but what I have learned this year is to wait, when the main work had already been done.
What does it cost just to wait a little longer?
A bit of space, whater and PATIENCE, ... nothing more.

At least 100 seedlings - all in all - had germinated out of my 2007 seedling beds this year so far!
Feels like xmas ... :-)

Grx,
Arno

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

I do not know if I would wait that long. Two years I think is my limit, but maybe if I had something I really wanted to see grow. You will have to keep use informed. So does it appear like it is a hybrid. Has it lost the unique leaf trait.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Hi Adam,

I don't know anything about its leafs, we will see, also I haven't made any fotos yet, as it rained here when I sat the seedling in a small greenhouse, outside an hour ago - so I had to hurry not to get wet.

So far only the primary two embryo leafs are visible, and they are still sticking together. Its a small seedling, but its pretty vivid in presence and colour, with a long root! I hope so it'll come through.

It will be a hybrid, yes, - diploid, I guess as Veilchenblau is also diploid. ...
The question is: will it survive and then will it be fertile?
It is my first so far surviving seedling of a Rosa subgenus-crossing :-)
And as I saw for the Luis Lens seedlings from Stellata mirifica, fertility seems really NOT alsways to be a sure outcome for such odd crossings ... .

Grx,
Arno

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Treasure Trove, I was wondering about the first leaves because with species crosses sometimes you get apomix or a lot of self even with out crosses. At least from what I heard. So based on the rest of the family and not on actual experience I have a feeling that a cross with either one of the species in this subgenus a seedling showing leaf morphology that is different than the species would indicate success early.

One of my big interest is noting plants that will lead to success with this plant. That is why I was interested in what lead to Jon and your successful crosses. From the phylogeny trees, the genetic studies and a few crosses already done with this section. I have a feeling that the pimpinefoliae, cinnamomeae, or the synstylae sections will have the greatest rate of success. Now I have not seen a genetic tree that had either species of this subgroup but from morpology and pass crosses that worked I think it would fall on a genetic tree somewhere around many of these.

It will be a while before I will be able to do crosses of my own in this department but I am thinking of crosses with rugosa hybrids, multiflora hybrid, and woodsii. I am particularly found of the woodsii idea but I am a sucker for that species. Ultimately I would like to take the drought resistance that both species show and add on winter hardiness. In my area of the world most plants are lost to not enough water in winter than to actual cold alone. I am also curious how certain traits like the thorny hips, the leaf morphology, the weird dormancy initiation, and the bloom cycle are effected by crossing with other species. And with species like these that have been cut off from the rest of the family effectively because of natural barriers who knows what you will get in a cross. Because of the natural barriers these two species (discounting hulthemia because it is still uncertain where it belongs) are probably the purest species found in the rose kingdom. By pure I mean they probably has had very little out crossing with other species. I could be wrong about this. Good luck with your seedlings.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Hi Adam!

OK now I understood - apomixis should be no problem in roses (even not in the caninae if the good old Kruessmann is still right), if you breed, but the selfings of course are. ...
You are right, the some of the first leaves should look different from pure stellata leaves, here.
But: What is stunning for me so far is the really tiny seedling itself!
I did a foto of it, a few minutes ago, together with a one Euro Cent Coin and I will post it ... if I again find out how. Its a few years after I did similar picture postings here in the forum, but I'll try.

And, believe me: The coin is NOT that big because of the greece induced inflation problem! :-)))

Grx,
Arno

PS: I don't know how to manage, so here are the links, I put it on helpmefind.com

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.5437.4&tab=36

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.146982

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.146984

...

Link: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.146984

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Hi!

Here are seedling fotos from two of three mirifica plants that germinated a couple of years here.

The first true leafs have got one part.

http://forum.planten.de/galerie/d/17689-3/st_mir1.jpg



My new seedling from 31.05.2010 has got three parts that form each of the first true leaves!

Here it is - a few hours ago.

http://forum.planten.de/galerie/d/144251-1/stellata_mir_x_veilchenblau3.jpeg



Also the colours are a bit more green and less with these soft violet tones.

All this might be a sign that it is a true hybrid, but so far im still not sure, of course.
Hope I don't have to wait until its flowering the first time. ;-)


I hope the pictures will be shown now in the thread.

Greetings,
Arno

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Sorry, my English needs an update, I wanted to say:

The interesting difference is, that the former three seedlings have got a single first true leaf. The new seedling from 2010 has got already compound first true leaves.

I hope now its better to understand ... .

Grx,
Arno

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

I understood you... and it DOES look like it is a hybrid. Good luck with it, you'll have to give us an update.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Hi Jon!

Thank you - yes I will update infos and pictures (I will LIKE to :-)), - and I hope the seedling will survive the first months. ...

While the stellata mirifica mother plants flowered this year, I did about 80 crossings again (so far - there are still buds on it), also with wild species.
Normally I don't like the direct mixing of hybrids and interesting special species like eg Stellata mirifca.
I prefer to cross in pure species first.
But there are extraordinary combinations, that MUST be done, aren't there? :-)

In my eyes, R. stellata mirifica x Veilchenblau is really one of them! The colour combinations let me hope to get veeery interesting lilac, lavender and mauve tones. Or simply: Something like "The blue rose". ;-)
This year I did also R. stellata mirifica x Baby Faraux and
further combinations. ... So: Something should happen - even if it happens three years later. ...

Grx,
Arno

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Here again the seedling of the 2007 cross R. stellata mirifica x Veilchenblau.

He shows his 3rd compound leaf now. Looks pretty like R. multiflora, doesn't it? ... :-)



Grx!
Arno

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Todays foto of the (still only hopefully suggested) parents - their flowers and their leaves.
So anyone can imagine easily how interesting this cross should be. ...



Grx,
Arno

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

One of my books shows an even darker eye zone on R. stellata mirifica. Its interesting to see the zone "in person". Is this an adaptation in some desert species?

At any rate, I love your idea. Its wise to use unconventional diploid species with known fertile modern diploids. I wish I had done similar with Rosa primula and Rosa roxburghii normalis when I used to have them. I hope your seedling(s) turn out fruitful :)

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Thanks Jadae!

Yes, if one puts tetraploid hybrid pollen on it, the chances sink again, to get something with good fertility and also of a good look.

I have had a Sangerhausen R. stellata mirifica x R. multibracteata seedling of the Louis Lens crossings with stellata. Nice very little (!) light mauve flowers, but if you watch closer: It doesn't build stamina and sometimes it has a hole in the middle, where the female parts should be.
Imagine! A hole. ... I am tolerant, but: That looks really frustrating and ugly. :-)

Perhaps its better not wanting too much in the first cross, thats my idea too. If the individuals crossed are of quite different genetic background, at least the ploidy should fit.

By the way, I thought also about your first topic: The light blotch on the stellata flower is possibly even not so light if you watch it with the eyes of a bee!
It could be even like a hulthemia bloth when observed in the ultraviolet spektrum (which bees can additionally percept)!
One should test it under UV Light influence. ...

Grx!
Arno

PS: I built a tent for the (now 98) crossings for it rains the next days ... .
As its not in my garden, but the garden of my parents, this was critically done under the eyes of my mother. She then said: You are an idiot!
:-)))

Here it is: the Stellata mirifica Tippi!

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Arno, I was thinking the same thing! I was wondering if it was an adaptation of some sort in extreme climates where UV is extreme to compete with other eye-catching UV hot spots... or something. Im not sure lol but I find I fascinating.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

PPS: Perhaps the stellata mirifica has all or at least some similar genes like hulthemia for building that blotch. - And perhaps they will lead to "blotched" offspring too?

Further: A combination of hulthemia and stellata offspring should be interesting, anyway. :-)
I tried some, we will see.

Grx,
Arno

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

now our postings just crossed.-:-))

Yes, the blotch is an adaption for sure - in the desert the plants stand not near together, so a pollinating insect needs help - in the form of position lights - the blotches on the flower petal bases.
They are like an emphasis, like an exclamation mark for the sentence: HERE is your lucky pollen!

Grx!
Arno

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Wanted to give an update on my minutifolia. It has stopped blooming and all three hips fell within a week. It looks like it may be getting ready for siesta. Each hip had one tiny little seed. I'm not very hopeful for germination... I would expect maybe a 2% chance.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

I keep my fingers crossed Jon.
I already had seedlings from one seed from one hip.
Its a try! Good that you have at least ONE, so you know it COULD be a good idea, what you did (that keeps your fire alive).

Grx!
Arno

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Hi!

That what it looks today (I will post the next update in a week or so):



Grx!
Arno

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Hi!

Here is the seedling of Rosa stellata mirifica x Veilchenblau again. He shows now his 4th and 5th true leaf, the 6th is underway. ...

On the fotos you also can see the labels from other seedlings in my "zoo of odds". :-) This is a little part where I plant all the seedlings that should in fact not be alive - although they are. ;-)



And here nearer to the 5th true leaf:



The question remains: is it or is it not? I would say the leavlet forms and the serratet leavelets are a sign that it is a true hybrid.
But still it is very young ... .


Grx!
Arno

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

As nobody suggests something I come up with this:

It must be a hybrid because of the stems of the leavelets, they ar much longer than it is for the typical leaves of stellata mirifica, especially in the last picture.

You can see increase the lenght of this last middle stem, from the first true leaf to the 5th!

Grx!
Arno

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Hi!

I will report the further development of the crossing (and next upcoming seedlings of this and other hybridizing lines) more often also here:

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.63398

and more often here:

http://www.rosebreeders.eu/forum/index.php?topic=126.0

and for Hybrid Hesperrhodos seedlings in general here is an overview where they appear:

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/plants.php?searchNmTyp=1&searchNm=mirifica&rid=3623&sbSearch=SEARCH&tab=1

For a broader discussion a broader a bit wide spread input and interest this might be better. Its not a theme for the masses, I know.
For me it's always been a delicate theme and I want to have simply more input and discussions, - as much as possible. ...
In the RHA Forum I will post news from time to time, especially for the first flowers or my further germinations with Hesperrhodos. ...
Jadaes input and thought exchange here is always great, thanks for that.

Grx!
Arno

Link: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/plants.php?searchNmTyp=1&searchNm=mirifica&rid=3623&sbSearch=SEARCH&tab=1

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

... and here, too (only in german language):

http://forum.planten.de/index.php/board,15.0.html

Link: http://forum.planten.de/index.php/board,15.0.html

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

I assumed that the hybridity was implied, so I didnt say anything lol.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Hi Jadae,

even implications can be wrong, but a wrong thing - not worked out as wrong by arguments - still stands there as being right.
My arguments can be read here, less further came up, so yes, it has to be a hybrid ... . :-)))

Now, seriously spoken: My first hope was, that someone with good experience would give a comment here, whether it looks like stellata or a stellata x hybrid.

But the plant will develop, lets see. ...
I think the flower then should be easier to interprete. ...
:-X


Grx!
Arno

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

I think it has to be a hybrid. I grew several op seed of stellata this spring from mail order seed and these definitely deviate from the form. I however do not know what version of stellata the op seed is from. But here are my reasons for you having a hybrid on your hands. 1. the leaflets of these seedlings are much too spread out (the stellata seedling I have growing the leaflets are more compacted together) 2. the terminal leaflet is quite a bit larger than the side leaflets (on the op pollinated seedlings it seems that all the leaflets are about the same size giving the name gooseberry rose an easy description on your photo from june 20 the first true leaf looks the closest to what I am talking about) 3. the petiole to the leaves look longer (the op seedlings i have growing the petioles are very small) 4. while I can not see them that well in the photo it does not seem like your plants are super thorny (every seedling I have is super thorny they are covered from head to foot with long straight thorns that do not curve on bit and the thorns started to appear about in between the time the first true leaves and the second true leaves showed up.) With all that said however I do not know the form that I do have so I may be wrong in my thinking.

kathy the R. minutifolia is already starting to bloom. It has put on a great deal of growth already. And has 3 flowers already bloomed and is putting on some more. The leaflets are extremely small and I noticed they smell which is nice. It is a very thorny plant like R. stellata seedlings I have growing right now.

Oh by the way my main interest in these two species is for drought tolerance. In the summer it is hot and dry here and the winter it is very dry. More plants are lost due to drought then to the actual cold. I figure if R. foetida and it relatives do well here maybe that is a clue to me. I figure I can pick up the drought tolerance and add in winter hardiness and see what happens. I also what to see what else is in these roses since neither one has been used that much. I was surprised at how well the R. stellata seed germinated. I do think it has a inhibitor in the seed coat that needs to be leached out first. By the way R. stellata seems to have some powdery mildew resistance very few of the seedlings where infected even when the majority of the seedlings in the trays around them were covered.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Hi Adam!

Thank you for your detailed thoughts on that topic.

Your lots of details are a good summary of several traits that may be of interest for everyone who will hybridize with stellata in the future.

The type of petioles and leaf form are major traits that can be seen here, I also think. And: the prickles at the stem that you mention are really there.
And yes, I also think that there is at least some powdery mildew resistance in R. stellata var. mirifica.
The seedling above e.g. is (as described above) still healthy after over a month, what is unusual for multiflora seedlings.

For your drought problem I might have an idea.

What about Rosa beggeriana crossings? Kruessmann writes its difficult but that is all relative to what you do. ...
I have some F1 plants out of a 2005 species cross that sparsely flowered for the first time tis year. I immediately did a cross between the F1 at 4th of June to get a spreading of traits in the F2.
One out of five hips did take very well!
And beggeriana is not only drought tolerant but also very winter hardy.Additionally it flowers over a very long period until autumn.
I love that rose, really, and can only tell you that it might be an interesting perspective for you.

Grx!
Arno

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

I will have to keep Rosa beggeriana in mind. I am very interested in all kinds of species anyways. If I had thousands of years in which to breed something and unlimited space. I think I would start out with nothing but species and breed them just to see what I would end up with in the end.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Hi Adam!

If its possible in any way I could send you material of my Rosa rugosa alba x Rosa beggeriana seedlings material.
I could do cuttings, seeds is a bit diddicult aat the moment as there is only one hip that produced seeds.

Grx!
Arno

PS: mirifica x crossings are doing well. Info following.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Should be "a bit difficult at the moment as there is only one hip that produced seeds."

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

TreasureTrove that is a nice offer but I am still trying to figure out how to do cuttings. They are probably safer in your hands. Maybe I could get pollen from you next year instead?

I have done one cross of Ann Endt x R. minutifolia this year. Hopefully it and the other few crosses on Ann Endt matures before fall. The crosses where done last week. I do not know if they will mature in time or if they will take.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Hi Adam,

OK, I will try to send pollen, I only don't know how to send it in a way that it is still alive if it arrives. But we'll work out, there is a whole year until then. :-)
Next year the plants will flower much more that this year, so the amount pollen is no problem, only the long shippement and so the viability of the pollen, when it arrives.
I use small Eppendorf Cases.

Grx!
Arno

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

TreasureTrove most people who have sent me pollen have sent the dried pollen in a folded piece of paper that is taped together and then put into the envelope that way. It seems to work fine. Most of the time the fertility is fine. Those that have not been that all fertile I still managed to get a few takes and maybe the fertility on those were fine but I crossed them with the wrong thing.

While I am talking about pollen Joel I need to here back from you on what short of things you have and what direction you want to go, so that I can collect something that will work for you.

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

Adam!

They are remontant! Today I spottet a couple of flowers on three of the bushes! One flush in May and one in August!

I will open up an own little thread for them here. A wild rose crossing with a remontant feature ... .
And very winter hardy - and droght tolerant too ... .
This is quite cool.

Grx!
Arno

Re: More on Subgenus Hesperhodos: R. minutifolia and stellata

The F1 seedling of Rosa stellata mirifica x Veilchenblau is still fine, he did not grow in July but since two weeks or so it had three more leafs.
Always still of three leaflets so far!

Grx!
Arno