Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

First I will say Hello to all.
I have looked sometimes into the postings and I'm very impressed about the contents and the quality. Some of the writers I still know from other websitses.As I started rose breeding in 2007, I'm still a rookie.

This year I decided to test the outcome of 'Rose de Resht' x 'Sympathie'. After the sudorific search about working pollen and stigmas at 'RdR' only one hip has grown on it.
The pollination of 'Sympathie' with the sparsely amount of pollen from 'RdR' has failed.

Today I harvested the hip, it contained only 3 small seeds.

now the stupid question. Does anybody have a recommendation for stratifying it ? Can I go the same way with it as with other garden roses ?, would threat them 4 weeks warm and 6 weeks in the fridge.

Cheers
Bernhard

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

Does your plant have virus symptoms? There is some literature that virused pollen has a tough time working?

http://apsnet.org/phyto/PDFS/1987/Phyto77n02_167.pdf

Link: http://apsnet.org/phyto/PDFS/1987/Phyto77n02_167.pdf

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

All specimens of 'Rose de Rescht' have at least one virus, whether they are symptomatic or not. I know for a fact that all three of mine, from different sources, are virused, and yet they often show no symptoms for years, and when they do, it may only be one leaf here and there with subtle markings.

The Damask Perpetuals in general are very poor seed parents and many produce no seed at all, ever. It is the nature of the group, nothing more.

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

Paul what is your experience when using it as a pollen parent?

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

Bernhard, how many pollinations did you do to get the one hip?

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

Henry, I don't use it as a pollen parent.

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

thank you all for response,

Henry, I've not observed virus symptoms on the plant. If it has less fertility than other RdR's, I would explain it with the age ( It's an only 3 year old cutting)or the hot, dry spring we had.

George, I like it recurrent, so I did it 2 times at least :-)

the statement of Paul, regarding the poor fertility of the whole 'damask' group seems to fit at best. I got also feedback from a German breeder, who wrotes that his 'rose de resht' as well as 'rose du roi' had never given seeds although there were grown hips on the plant. That's what we call a 'deceptive package'

thanks again for the answers
Bernhard

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

- I have gotten seedlings from 'Rose de Rescht', although it never makes more than one or two seeds per hip at best, and the germination rate is 20% or lower.

- I still have the first plant of 'Rose de Rescht' I ever owned, and it is now over 15 years old. It has only twice exhibited classic virus watermarking on the foliage, and only discreetly on a few leaves here and there. 95% of the time there are no visual symptoms. I believe that all specimens of this cultivar are infected with one or more viruses, and that the plants are asymptomatic for much of the time. I do not believe that their virus status plays much (or any) role in their fertility since most of the Damask Perpetuals are very poor seed setters. I believe it is an inherent trait of the group.

- One of my 'Rose de Rescht's was used as a seed parent this Spring and about 25 pollinations has resulted in about 15 seeds. Their viability will not be known till next Spring, but with this many seeds, I expect at least 3 or 4 will germinate. My experience with the cultivar suggests that it is worth exploring as a sideline, knowing fully well that it will never produce large volumes of offspring and therefore should not be heavily invested in but rather "dabbled" with.

Paul

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

Paul, thank you for sharing your experiences,
maybe I've established a new record with the 3 seeds I got :-)
My conclusion will be that I need more plants of it and/or have to increase the number of pollinations on them.
What you said, was exaxtly what I thought, 'working with it as a sideline, but continous and with no great expectations.'

I hope you will have success and show us the outcome of your 15 seeds.

cheers
Bernhard

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

Paul wrote "My experience with the cultivar suggests that it is worth exploring as a sideline, knowing fully well that it will never produce large volumes of offspring and therefore should not be heavily invested in but rather "dabbled" with."

I think that's a good way to look at it. A few years back I had read a post (I think it might have been yours, Paul) about 'Rose de Rescht' being pod fertile in spite of it hardly ever setting open-pollinated hips. So I tried 'Rose de Rescht' as a seed parent, using 'Carefree Sunshine' as the pollen parent and got about a dozen seedlings. That's not a lot of offspring but it's enough for me to keep using it. Unfortunately, I didn't keep the pot watered and those seedlings died before getting them in the ground.
So lately I'm still "dabbling" with RDR but have been using it for more offbeat attempts. Last year I tried Rosa carolina on it and this season I tried a real long shot (Rosa laevigata). Neither of these gave me any seeds. Maybe next season I'll try something a little more conventional on it again.

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

I did a dozen crosses with Rose de Rescht in 2000, 2001, and 2003. Three of the crosses produced seedlings:
Rose de Rescht X mixed pollen
Rose de Rescht X Tuscany Superb
Tuscany Superb X Rose de Rescht

I did each of those crosses just once. The cross with mixed pollen gave me a hip with 6 seeds and 1 germination. Rose de Rescht X Tuscany Superb gave me a hip with 8 seeds and 3 germinations. Tuscany Superb X Rose de Rescht gave me a hip with 3 seeds and 1 germination. I kept one of the seedlings of Rose de Rescht X Tuscany Superb from 2001. The plant and blooms resemble Rose de Rescht, except for the bloom color, which is more like Tuscany Superb. It is healthy, fragrant, non-remontant, and suckers like crazy. It has never set an OP hip. I've always intended try breeding with that seedling. Maybe next year...

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

I think Jim has the right idea: get a seedling that looks promising and move forward immediately, if possible. I have a feeling that in order to get anything worthwhile, you need to get at least one generation away from Rose de Rescht itself. Just a feeling.....

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

Jim Turner, I am interested in the behaviour of virused pollen. Do your records include how many flowers of Tuscany Superb you pollinated to get that one hip? Also how does the number of seeds in your Tuscany Superb X Rose de Rescht hip compare to the number of seeds in other crosses where Tuscany Superb was the mother?

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

George, as I had a 2nd look at the postings, I noticed that my answer maybe has not given back what you've asked for.
Before I begun the pollination I searched about a suitable flower. I found only one , which seemed to be fertile (without this small kind of leaves at the stigma) Only this one I have pollinated multiple times.

cheers
Bernhard

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

Henry, as I wrote in my post, each of the named crosses was done just once. I pollinated one bloom of Tuscany Superb with Rose de Rescht pollen and got one hip.

Here's a summary of my 2001-2004 crosses with Tuscany Superb as the seed parent:

poll'ns  hips  seeds  pollen parent
12       5     11     Chrysler Imperial
 2       0     0     Fragrant Cloud
 1       0     0     Olympiad
 5       2     3     Magenta
 1       0     0     Reine des Violettes
 1       1     3     Rose de Rescht
 1       1     9     Stainless Steel

Rose de Rescht pollen worked better on Tuscany Superb than most of the pollens I tried.

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

Thanks Jim Turner. According to Help-Me-Find there are no registered roses with Rose de Rescht as the pollen parent so I wondered if it was because the pollen were virused.

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

Bernhard, yes I was actually wondering how many flowers you had pollinated to get the one hip. You gambled really well to get one hip (and 3 achenes) out of only one flower pollination.

BTW, don't bother doing any float tests on the achenes, because some floaters do germinate. Just sow all of them when they are ready.

Good luck with them!

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

Henry,
The Damask Perpetuals in general have very low fertility and I seriously doubt it has anything to do with their virus status. Rose de Rescht is a "found" variety having resurfaced in commerce circa 1945, long after anyone would have employed it as a breeding variety. In other words, it was very much out of fashion when it was rediscovered and breeders would have ignored it, since Hybrid Teas were practically the only things being created at that time. If it had parented any other roses (and it is likely that it did) it would have done so pre-1900, when it probably still had its original name attached to it. So, it likely does have offspring, but they would list its original name in its pedigree, not the post-1945 name of Rose de Rescht. And since we still don't know what its original identity is, there is no way of knowing about any of its progeny unless they were created after 1945.

FYI: Ralph Moore's famous 0-47-19 has one or more of the viruses that cause Rose Mosaic and yet it is extremely fertile as both a pollen and seed parent.

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

Thanks Paul I did not realize the name history.

Also thanks for the 0-47-19 info regarding its use as a good pollen parent in spite of its virused condition.

Another example of: "Nature is puzzling" (or at least it will appear so until we understand all the variables).

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

George wrote:"BTW, don't bother doing any float tests on the achenes, because some floaters do germinate...."

good hint George,.. but I never was believing this story. I always sow it all :-)

cheers
Bernhard

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

a gamblers luck:

2 of the 3 seeds germinated today. I hope that they will become fertile, to go ahead with them :-)

cheers
Bernhard

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

Oh that is fantastic, well done Bernhard..

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

I germinated OP seed several years ago. As I remember I think there were mildew problems. I culled them when they were still relatively small.

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

It's a shame you don't have more time, room and patience to test your seedlings, Robert. So many seedlings mildew as infants and in odd situations, then continue to grow into wondrously healthy adults. Even the best of them will midew under the worst conditions.

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

"Even the best of them will midew under the worst conditions."


Uh uh!

No, many are clean here, even under stress and in areas with restricted air flow.

Life's too short for roses that mildew.

I can't test for Blackspot. Working toward resistance to Powdery Mildew is somewhere I can and will make a contribution whether it's appreciated in some climates or not.

After all, I seek out roses that are resistant to Black spot even though I'll never see it here.

I'm not saying that any rose is going to be perfect, especially long term, but when we have the opportunity to cull disease prone seedlings, I absolutely think we should.

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

Hey Berhard, maybe your third RdR achene will germinate, also!

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

I had used Rose de Resht for several years trying pollen various roses. Most of the attempts weren't worth the effort with the exception of Austin's Mary Rose.
From the numerous "RdR x Mary Rose" crosses I did manage one rose that survived and is a repeat bloomer.

As stated before many of the Damask Perpetuals tend to have low fertility, however I have had good success with
"Indigo x Mary Rose" crosses. Many of the seedlings had flowers with good form (some portland like) and very double. Many were very vigorous (some sucker freely) with at least Z5 hardiness. The vast majority were once bloomers. If I were to choose work with the again with the Damask Perpetuals, Indigo is where I would start.

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

Very interesting info about 'Indigo', John, thanks for that. I might just put my 'Indigo' to work this Spring!

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

indeed a good hint to test 'Indigo'. John, it would be great, if you could show us a pic of your RdR Seedling.

cheers
Bernhard

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

Bernard I'm attaching a link to the "Rose de Resht X Mary Rose" picture that you requested.

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

John,
The image does not appear in your post. Can you try again, please? Thanks!

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

Bernhard the image did not display. Here is the link that you can follow.
http://s903.photobucket.com/albums/ac236/johnjay7491/2004%20Roses/?action=view¤t=2004-020.jpg

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

John, go to the photobucket image and click on it to open it.. Photobucket then gives you a menu called "share this image"..if you click onto the "direct link" option, the direct link will be copied.

Then in your new message on RHA where it says "Photo link" you then delete the "http:// " altogether. After this is blank go ahead and paste the link that was copied from your photobucket image (like copy and pasting).

Then post the picture along with your word message.

Then we can see your picture!

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

John,
Thank you for the link, I found the pic, although your link was a little bit broken, maybe by the forums software.

Your seedling is a further demonstration that pink is dominant :-)

But it's still a nice rose.

cheers
Bernhard

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

BTW John.. 2004-57. Quite lovely and informal.

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

Quote:"Hey Berhard, maybe your third RdR achene will germinate, also!"

today completed :-). That's also my 1st 100% germination score.
These achenes are easy to bred, (if you get some)

cheers
Bernhard

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

must show a pic, because Robert was painting such a 'powdery' picture....

the whole batch is healthy :-)

BTW: the only seedlings I ever got problems with, have been bred from 'Sorbet'.

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

That's a nice looking seedling Bernhard.

Maybe the bees brought you some healthy pollen?

Disease pressure for Powdery Mildew is high here in my area at the time my seedlings start to germinate. This is a good thing as I can cull for mildew early.

It's disappointing to find mildew later after time and energy is spent raising a seedling to maturity.

I might not find seedlings are prone to infection till later in another climate.

The RdR seedlings I germinated never prospered. They were little runts gray from mildew.

To tell the truth 'Rose de Rescht' itself never really liked the climate here either.

Fortunately many things do.

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

"Maybe the bees brought you some healthy pollen?"

it was a bee with Kordesii blood called 'Sympathy' LOL

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

Bernhard, congratulations on your success!

Now I can't wait to see the pictures of the flowers!


:0)

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

George, thanks, I'm impatient too and expect one of them (hopefully all) will flower in the 1st year.I keep you informed.
At first i would be happy if the frost would escape... to grow them under better conditions.

cheers
Bernhard

Re: Breeding with 'Rose de Resht'

To be sure!
Thanks for the update Bernhard, and best of luck to you.